F-4 Phantom Discussion Zone - Versions, Mods, Lumps & Bumps

[Duke Maddog]

That sounds good for all big scale aircraft guys. Maybe I should go place a reply on "The Old Man's Blog" asking once again for some highly detailed 1/72 scale C-5's, C-141's and other larger aircraft that nobody does in plastic. After all, if they are into building these big large scale aircraft like the Rhino, then why can't they build a big small scale aircraft that is roughly the same size?

[wjkunert]

It probably relates to the difficulty getting the type of detail that ZM is known for into a 1/72 scale model. Detailing the engines and cockpits on these models would be next to impossible.

[Duke Maddog]

It probably relates to the difficulty getting the type of detail that ZM is known for into a 1/72 scale model. Detailing the engines and cockpits on these models would be next to impossible.

Not really. Other companies have done it. Besides what detail they can't put into cockpits and engines they can add to the interiors of the cavernous cargo bays on these aircraft. They can still maintain their reputation for intense detail there. Especially if they make the nose and cargo bay doors hinged so those interiors can be shown. It's too bad nobody is willing to do such iconic aircraft in a scale that matches so many other aircraft already.

[RexCag]

If anyone is wondering why I sort of "stopped" doing this,,,,,I didn't.

I noticed that I was doing the same as almost every other online Phantom guide did. I was just giving the highlights, and I wanted to do this in greater detail. I want it to be possible for a person to click on one page, and see all the variations of the Phantom on there. (maybe with links to other sites, and maybe just "trust me")

So, I've added this project to my list of things to do, and will post an extremely complete Phantom Guide on my site http://z15.invisionfree.com/Hangar_Deck ... /index.php

That way, in the future, a person can just add a link to that, or I can, and not have to type it over and over again, risking "being wrong" because I left out one small important detail in any given post.

I have been collecting Phantom books and info since before there was the first Phantom book out there, before I got my first model in 1965 (at age eight). Sometimes all we would get is a small column or article in one of the flying models magazines.

Quite a few Phantom myths exist, simply because the originator of the myth "jumped into" the hobby when the Phantom was already flying for a decade or two.

Heck, I just learned a sure fire way to visibly always tell an F-4A from an early F-4B back in August, in the course of a casual conversation with a very knowledgeable Navair guy. Here it is in advance, even after all the other F-4B visual features were present on any certain F-4A, the F-4A still had different intake ramps than the B. I overlooked that for years, but, when I got home, I got out all the books and looked at photos, and he was right, once you know to look, you can see it every time. (the ramps, not the intake lip shape)

So, the myth that "you have to see the BuNo to tell a Block 5 F-4A from an F-4B from Block 6 and onwards" is simply not true. (Spirit in the Skies even quotes this one, incorrectly, and it is one of the places that you can tell from photos)

[mostrich]

Rex, I'm again impressed by those super nitpicking (in a positive way) details you are able to find on those birds you know for such a long time now.
Is there something like a "top 3" of books on the topic you can recommend to someone who just started to dive into the matter?

[RexCag]

Sure, I can give you three "top three's" depending on what you want to have.

If you want paperbacks, and you want "some" of the details, but maybe not all, get the three Datafiles from SAM. This will give a novice an idea of what each type looks like, and some photos and discussion for each type.

If you want a lot of photos without a lot of text, get the Double Ugly Navy book, the USMC paperback, and their AirDoc British book,,,,,,,and one of the other choices for USAF.

If you want nuts and bolts, get Daco's Navy Phantom book, Jake Melampy's USAF book, and Spirit in the Skies. That will give you a small look at non-US users, and a LOT of nuts and bolts, variant details, and Armament info.

Just be warned that you have to cross reference Spirit in the Skies with other books, as well as the DataFiles,,,,or you will wind up "knowing" that there were more RF-4Bs than really existed (Spirit) or looking for photos of the RF-4J (DataFile USN book)

Other options would be a short stack of the Squadron and Detail & Scale books, the Aerofax Minigraphs, Camouglage and Markings, etc.

The benefit of the short stack of paperbacks is that you can "ease into" your Phantom knowledge without spending a lot all at once. (if you can find them, that is)

here are two Phantom book lists (in case someone wants a "collector's library", lol)

https://www.scalemates.com/search-solr. ... II+McDonne*

http://phantomphacts.blogspot.com/2013/ ... om-ii.html

note that I don't even have them all yet, and I have some that these places never heard of

[RexCag]

oh, and I didn't mean to slight the Osprey book guys

There have been three generations of Osprey books, the old Hardcovers that covered a range of subtypes in each title, some cheap paperbacks,,,,and the current "In combat over ______" set. The current set is always loaded with photos, good text, color profiles and photos, and getting one of each Phantom title would make a pretty good start for Phantom knowledge. (Osprey's USN Phantom over Vietnam is one of the very few places that illustrate the F-4B MiG Killer that was converted back from an F-4G)

edit, oh, and my "Phantom library" is somewhat Limited, this is all I have (plus about a dozen that Scalemates will know about once I find that danged cord for my camera, lol)

edit again,,,,,ack, flings mouse across the room,,,,,I can't post the link directly, and the "URL" posts the link but doesn't make it a "hot link"

so, go here, https://www.scalemates.com/profiles/mat ... 38&p=stash then sort on the right column for Books, then sort that for McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom

also know that there is a lot of Phantom stuff in other topics, USAF in Vietnam, for example

[Stikpusher]

I really like the Osprey books. Their USAF Phantom vs Mig 1972 from the duel series was a bit of an eye opener for me. I did not realize that the Air Force went into the Linebacker campaign using AIM-4s, instead of AIM-9s as their heat seeker option. Sidewinders came in later for Air Force F-4s after the big day of May 10. Gun pods were not in use in theater any longer for air to air, so the air superiority dedicated squadron flying F-4Ds, the 555th TFS, has only AIM-7s as a workable weapon. The F-4E reinforcements of the Linebacker Campaign were a big step up, as was the re wiring of the inboard wing stations for Sidewinders instead of Falcons, although the internal gun played a role in only a few kills. I also learned about the "Combat Tree" Mig IFF interrogation system there. A little bit of electronic dirty tricks

[RexCag]

They did have a Sidewinder capability. All they would have had to do was sortie F-4Cs in the F-4D formation.

Also, this gets skipped a lot, but, there were 5 hits with the AIM-4, so they *could* work, part of the time, at least.

[Stikpusher]

They did have a Sidewinder capability. All they would have had to do was sortie F-4Cs in the F-4D formation.

Also, this gets skipped a lot, but, there were 5 hits with the AIM-4, so they *could* work, part of the time, at least.

Yes, but the Cs were not in the squadron. The Air Force was still pushing for the AIM-4 on the Phantom as late as 1971. Yes, it did make 4 kills. But it missed many many time more often. Wiring was fitted for AIM-9s to Phantoms in theater (F-4D and F-4E) and the AIM-9E was used until the AIM-9J came into use in September 1972.

No F-4Cs were in theater for the USAF in 1972. Only F-4Ds and F-4Es.